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My turn in the can 'o worms...

Okay, are we all tired of hearing about the Open Source Boob Project yet? Yes? Thought so.

You keep referring to Heinlein. I once wrote (in the voice of Archy the Cockroach) that it would be nice if sex was the same thing to everyone, as Heinlein believed it ought to be - even if that thing wasn't the same thing as it was to Heinlein - but I fear this is not the case.

Heinlein was missing the fries and the plastic toy in the Happy Meal of life. IMHO.

>> "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them."

...holy crap.

I'd been trying to empathize understand exactly why my girlfriend is so anxious around random men on the street, even in safe neighborhoods around other people, if the man looks even a little unbalanced. We'd gone through discussions of social norms, the general view of women in a sexual society, etc.

I got it on an intellectual level, but never really internalized it until this quote. I mean...wow. Being able to make that connection is really instilling a sense of respect for her anxiety and the fears of all women approached by a creepy man because, god knows, I still can't hit on a hot girl worth a damn.

*salute* Then the post was not in vain!

Maybe I missed something big, but all I've seen on the boob project -was- some weirdness at a con and people thinking 'OMG this'd be great all the time'.

I think it would be great. I also think punching Bill Clinton in the liver would be great also, but both would probably land me in prison (the latter, definitely).

So in conclusion, boobs -are- good and the nice guys won't paw you without being clear about the welcoming part (hell, the last girl -grabbed- my hand).

I think it's the not-so-nice guys who think they're nice guys that are the problem here. Sadly, that's far more prevalent than most guys realize, simply because they don't have to deal with it.

Actually... I think this is the best response I've read to this yet.

(And I'm an option D. Good to know I have a niche.)

I just wanted to pipe in to claim that as a man, I actually have had not-very-attractive-or-sane women approach me and proposition me sexually.

I blinked for a moment in surprise, thought about it, and declined, but offered a hug instead.

This is the first time I've heard of this, and the first post I've read on the subject. Normally I do not go perusing the other posts on LJ, but this one caught my eye via friend of mine and I decided to give this post a read.

After reading this post, and that the fellow who originally came up with the idea later admitted it would be a bad idea for the general public, I have only these few thoughts:

1) I am not religious, a psychopath, rapist or sex fiend/pervert, but I AM A GUY WHO LOVES NATURAL BOOBS!

2) I would not ask to touch a woman's boobs unless I knew she would have no problems with it. Button or no button. If I did, I'd rightfully deserve the medical bills. If I ever have a daughter, I'd make sure she had the right and left crosses down pat so she can send any offenders into a coma.

3) I AM part of the group that wishes we didn't have the sexual hang-ups we do. I am also part of the group that believes that boundaries exist for a reason and they are good boundaries to have. If we could be more like Europe or Australia (where public nudity is common enough to be acceptable but boundaries still exist), I'd be in HEAVEN.

4) I am comfortable in my nudity around consenting friends and/or consenting strangers. I care not what size women perceive me as, for I know my true size. I care not what size hers are, as long as they are natural.

5) The fellow who originally came up with the idea apparently realized the potential for (please forgive the term use) abuse and posted his realization that it should not be done in a public venue unless between consenting adults. Please give the guy credit for having the ability to realize his mistake.

6) Ursulav, this was a wonderful post. In spite of your perception your are not good with words, you use them perfectly well in your writing.

7) My apologies to anyone offended by this response, including (and most of all) Ursulav. Please don't hit me.

If we could be more like Europe or Australia (where public nudity is common enough to be acceptable but boundaries still exist), I'd be in HEAVEN.

I shall assume you don't mean the UK. Public nudity is most definitely not acceptable here and would most likely lead to arrest and being listed on the Sex Offenders Register (urinating in public is also lumped in with public nudity and can lead to being list on the SOR as well).

And Australia? Uh... only ever in designated areas with no/limited ability for the general public to view anything without entering those areas themselves (like the designated nude/topless beaches). Unless the average aussie has become amazingly relaxed since I left the country 12 years ago! My impression is that the various state governments and the federal government have become even more Nanny-like in that time, so I doubt it.

(See, this is why I like furry cons. Never. Comes. Up.)

It doesn't? I'm not asking in a snarky backhanded bitchy way, I'm just genuinely curious, because I've never been to a furry con, and I would like to know more.

Furry fandom is made up of overwhelming percentages of gay males and (since the rise of Inuyasha, I suspect) young straight females. They are fabulous cons for lone women in that you generally feel 100% safe. Nobody with the con is gonna mess with you.

Mind you, if you're lookin' to get laid, you've got a much tougher road to hoe, but hey...

I was wondering what this was about. Nice summation! Love the way you state things:

I am very poor at making words into a biohazard suit.

Architectural words have to be meticulous and load-bearing and convey the meaning with precision and clarity and not fall down when you poke the clauses with a stick.

I've read a few of these conversations, and as I would expect of Ursulav's readers, for the most part they have been very sane so far. Huzzah to everyone!

I am one of those polyamorous people, and frankly that has made me "more" protective of who I let touch me in what I would consider to be a sexual way. I.E., my breasts. For me, when I'm not limited to just one partner, sexual behavior occurs in a less limiting social situation. I feel that it allows me to feel more like it's me making a choice on saying yes or no rather than possibly saying yes because who knows when this will happen again, or no because I have a boyfriend and I *have* to.

That said, after doing some reading and thinking I really don't agree that people should just wander around and ask. On the other hand, if a woman really doesn't mind she could just take the risk that people take every day of rejection and ask whomever she would like to feel her breasts to do so.

I love Stranger in a Strange Land, but societally we've got a long way to go before that's doable. Like proper sex education (as in how to properly discuss it, not just what the physical act is.) And all of the big issues that lie behind what I feel to be America's gender/sexuality based societal dysphoria.

Anyway, thanks again to Ursulav and everyone else who has participated. I am exhausted, and going to bed now.

I'm going to get punched for this

I'll skip the detail in agreeing with this post (it'd just be redundant with many far more eloquent comments). I am a bit surprised that theferrett came up with this, though; I don't know him that well, but in the few times I've been in contact with him online, he didn't come across as being boneheaded enough to propose something like this.

Anyway. As soon as I read the bit about the unwashed guy in the Sailor Moon costume asking if he could grab cock, I immediately thought of this:

"What!? What kind of trollop do you think I am!?"

Even on the guy side this is a bad idea.

I mean, apart from the inbred "I like boobies" brain pattern, which we can't help, most guys (aforementioned troglodytes aside) are going to have a reaction to a woman who's wearing one of those badges --
"What a slut."

It's probably not fair to the people wearing them, but that's the instant reaction anyway.

Ah, the old virgin/whore dichotomy; it's a rigged game for women, and one they can't win. (Patriarchy's a rigged game for men too, but that's a whole lot easier to ignore when you're on the privileged end of the stick.)

And no, that reaction isn't in any way fair: fixing it is your responsibility, though.

Our social conventions may be weird, complicated, ridiculous things, and god knows, I dispense with a lot of them, but plenty of them are in place for a reason, and the simple fact is that if you come up to a majority of women and ask if you can touch their boobs, they will get A) pissed, B) terrified, or C) all of the above, and the number who will instead opt for D) flattered and amused will be a definite minority.

Unless I am understanding wrong (and I hadn't heard about this before, so this is purely based on what read in this post) that is the purpose of the proposed pins. So that the women in category D could signal their willingness to to have their breasts touched, and the rest would not be asked.

I'm not saying I think it's a GOOD idea. It's certainly not one I would participate in (I am generally not ok with strangers touching me, anywhere. Boobs or not. :p)

"Why aren't you wearing the pin?" "God you must be so frigid." "It's only a bit of fun." "Why are you too uptight to wear the pin?" "You're going to ruin it for the rest of us!" "Do you think you're better than me because I'm wearing a pin and you aren't?" (that one can be vice versa) "She let me, why won't you?"

I haven't been and read the full OSBP and all the comments, but I'd be really really surprised if nobody else has pointed out that the above comments would be likely to happen. As someone else said earlier the people who think of themselves as "nice guys" (or "nice girls" for that matter) are often deluded.

Statements that are similar/related, and equally asinine:

"You should feel flattered that...

... someone ripped off your art.

... someone sexually harassed you.

... you're being stalked by someone creepy."

I don't feel your view point even needs to be defended. Of course it's rude to ask a woman if you can touch her breasts, NOT because of some social hangup we, as a society, have (of which there are plenty) but because:

A) It's for the sole satisfaction of the asker. You know he's not going to try to make it pleasurable for her, he's not doing it because he wants to make a good impression and show her how awesome he is at groping ... he just wants to cop a feel.
B) If it were socially acceptable to ask a woman if you could cop a feel, you know there would come a stigma to any woman who said she wasn't interested. You know, because we need to take away even MORE control from women over their own bodies.

It's just ridiculous. I can understand a desire to get over socially ingrained, unnecessary hangups, but refraining from asking a complete stranger if you can masturbate on them does not fall into that category.

While it was a very bad idea, I should point out that it was not men who dreamed up or began the project- it was women.

(Deleted comment)
In the second con version of the OSBP, the absence of a pin meant "no you may not ask" and "you may not raise the topic of the project unless I enquire about it first"

I'm not sure of where you're drawing the line between the world of logic and the world of reality, since all of the comments I've seen from participants seem to indicate that this run worked OK, with no non participants being propositioned, but I suspect that some askers would indeed willfully misinterpret the rules if the project was to go through any sort of major expansion.