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My turn in the can 'o worms...

Okay, are we all tired of hearing about the Open Source Boob Project yet? Yes? Thought so.

For those who have blissfully avoided this discussion lately, the OSBP was a thingy that somebody dreamed up, presumably in a post-Heinleinian daze, about how it would be lovely if women at conventions would let you touch their breasts. And they were discussing this and some chick in the group said "Okay, feel free," and it was lovely and there were boobs and boobs are good things, as everybody knows, and somebody dreamed up an opt-in option whereby women who were cool with you asking if you could touch their boobs would wear little buttons at conventions, and there would be free range boobage for all (or at least those who had bathed recently) and life would be glorious. (There are links to this all over LJ--somebody might be so kind as to post a link to the original in the comments, I'm not gonna go digging.)

This idea got shot down about as quickly as you'd expect it would, for all the reasons of sanity, i.e. "Do you know how friggin' creepy that would be in practice?!" and "We have minors at conventions and do you REALLY want to spend the rest of your life on a sex offender's list when the captain of the local vice squad strolls in and sees you groping his fifteen-year-old daughter?" but it also opened the large and ugly can of worms that can only be handled with words like "privilege" and "consent" and "harassment", as if the words are very long tongs that we are handling some very toxic stuff with.

Now, I am not skilled with this kind of language. I can make words into a story or a joke or an aesthetically pleasing phrase--I am very poor at making words into a biohazard suit. You have to build that sort of thing very cautiously. You have to lay down each word to carefully exclude what you DON'T mean instead of singing paeans to what you DO mean, so that nobody gets offended, or more importantly, so that when they DO get offended, they're actually getting offended at what you meant, instead of at the thing that they instinctively get offended about, which wasn't what you meant at all, but you didn't build the biohazard suit carefully enough to exclude it.

I'm bad at that shit. I got through my feminist post-modernist perspectives in anthropology class by the skin of my teeth and the grace of a prof who gave me a C because I kinda needed the class and I can't imagine she wanted to see my frustrated bafflement at 8 in the morning for two semesters running. I like words too much. I can't DO that sort of thing to them. It's cruel. (It's the opposite trouble with clay. Clay, to my mind and my fingers, wants to be utilitarian. I cannot make abstract sculptures out of it, no matter how much the prof wants them. Clay  is alive, and it wishes to be useful.)

Maybe it's the difference between being an artist and an architect--artists just sling the stuff around and then hang it on the wall when it looks about right. Architectural words have to be meticulous and load-bearing and convey the meaning with precision and clarity and not fall down when you poke the clauses with a stick. Artist words just have to ding something in the subbasement of the soul, and the reader will generally cut you some slack while they fill in the rest of the space.

...man, I totally got off on a tangent there, didn't I? Never mind. Ignore the last few paragraphs. (See, I told you I was bad at that shit.) Back to boobs. Just keep in mind what I said about me and words. I cannot build a biohazard suit, and I am not good at joining these kinds of intense conversations. I'm glad somebody's having them--christ, am I glad!--but I just gotta muddle through by the skin of my teeth. My apologies in advance if I say something stupid and put my foot in it (or in arrears, if I've done it already, for that matter.)

I think the project was a laughably bad idea. Probably well-intentioned, in a doofy "I just read Stranger in a Strange Land, and boy, it would be cool if we didn't have all these hang-ups," kinda way (and hey, we were ALL that age once) but obviously you just can't do that kinda crap because when it goes wrong, it will go Very Very VERY Wrong, with the explosions and the screaming and the PTSD. Our social conventions may be weird, complicated, ridiculous things, and god knows, I dispense with a lot of them, but plenty of them are in place for a reason, and the simple fact is that if you come up to a majority of women and ask if you can touch their boobs, they will get A) pissed, B) terrified, or C) all of the above, and the number who will instead opt for D) flattered and amused will be a definite minority.

But I'll say that the intentions were probably pure, in the sense that I've known a fair number of men in my time, and "I like boobs!" really is a pure emotion in many straight members of the species, entirely devoid of extraneous thought or emotional baggage, in much the same was that some women like chocolate or shoes, and I personally like socks and Balinese demon masks. Love of boobs may be hardwired. (Okay, I'm SURE it's probably hardwired.) In most cases, I don't think it's got a damn thing to do with the objectification of women or anything else--I think they just plain like boobs. Sometimes the human psyche is just that straightforward.

Me, I like men. But I can't see an Open Source Cock Project getting off the ground worth a damn. And before guys leap to the "Hey, that'd be AWESOME!" conclusion, I want you to think about how you'd feel if the average chick at a con--not the supermodel, honey, but the one with acne and a few extra pounds and the great personality--came up and started pawing your junk. In public. Maybe this is a straight male fantasy, but even with a woman that might be considered attractive, in actual REALITY, as opposed to the porno flick playing 24-7 behind the eyes,* a lot of the guys I know would be backing away going "WHOA! Ah--uh--heh--really not interested--thanks--" and making a dash for the men's restroom and the whole situation would be awkward beyond measure.

Now think about the LEAST attractive women at a con.

Now compare the low end of female attractiveness at a con with the low end of male attractiveness at a con, 'cos trust me, you've generally got us beat hands down on that one. If you can honestly say that you would take part in a project that might involve one of the unwashed guys in a stinking undersized Sailor Moon costume asking to feel your naughty bits, then you, sir, are a better man than I and I will make no bones about the fact. You get a free pass on the rest of the conversation, go get a cookie and feel free to sit the rest out. (This all assumes you're a straight male--think how it would be for gay men. If empathy fails, please picture unwashed Sailor Moon guy again. There we go.)

And if all that hasn't dissuaded you, please ALSO consider the fact that we're going to talk to each other about the size of the junk thus pawed, and compare notes, and the phrase "Damn, he was hot, pity he's hung like a church mouse," will likely come up. (Yes. If you didn't realize that women do discuss these things amongst themselves, I'm sorry to have to be the one to enlighten you. There, there. Size really doesn't matter after a certain point, honest, but if all we're doing is the grope test, you don't exactly have the chance to prove what a tender/sensitive/manually dexterous/no, really, dude can fuck like a rutting wildebeest lover you are, now do you?)

...and once again I got off topic. Well, I warned you.

Okay, back to boobs, and the open source boob thing. I can't say how anybody should feel about this. I can't say how the execution should or could be handled well, or if it's inherently flawed down to the bone, or if there is a subrace of enlightened souls--possibly the same folks who can handle polyamory gracefully without it turning into a raging monkey clusterfuck--who could pull it off so that everybody was happy and there were boobs for all.

I can tell you that I have a really nice rack, and there are exactly two men who get to touch it, and one of them is my gynecologist, and that there is no future, however enlightened, where that is likely to change.**

And I can also tell you that if I were at a con, and some guy came up to me, and said "Can I please touch your boobs?" I would stare at him for a second and then I would break into hysterical soul-crushing laughter and say "What? Can you what? NO! Of course not!" and depending on how well-lubricated I was at that point, might or might not follow it up with further braying laughter and "What the hell are you thinking?" and furthermore, I'd spend the rest of that con telling everybody and their brother about this nasty little troglydyte with no grasp of the social graces. Shit, I'd be trotting THAT story out for years, along with the one about the guy with the alien implant in his head, whenever the booze started flowing.

This would definitely not be very nice of me, but...well...I know myself, and that's what I'd do. I'd be so completely dumbfounded that anybody would have the complete social gracelessness to say such a thing that hysterical amusement would be my only refuge.

I'd have to admit that I was creeped out and freaked out and maybe even felt rather degraded by the notion, (Do I? I don't know. It's squishy and scary and maybe the assumption that I SHOULD feel flattered is part of what's degrading. Shit, I don't know, and I don't want to play anymore.) and nobody likes admitting they're scared, and we're somewhat past the era when I could say "What!? What kind of trollop do you think I am!? My seconds shall call upon you at dawn, sir!"*** and smooth the whole thing over with bullets.

Hence the laughing. Because--well--I HAVE to turn something like that, at least in my head, into "harmless little worm with no social intelligence" because otherwise it turns into "fuck, I'm in a situation where strange men think they can touch me," and that sets off all the alarm bells. There's a particular set of hairs on the back of my neck, and when they stand up, I  know to bloody well listen, and I can guarantee that the minute that actually happened to me in real life (or whatever value of real life a convention is) those hairs would start doing a samba.

As a commenter on this whole fiasco said, very succinctly and with rather cruel accuracy, "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them."

And the only thing I see coming of something like the open source boob project is that men WILL get laughed at, and women WILL get scared, and at the end of the day, the situation's just much more unpleasant for everybody.

(See, this is why I like furry cons. Never. Comes. Up.)

ETA: I should just mention, for the irony of it all, that I made this post topless, not because of any erotic reason but because my bloody sunburn hurts. *snort*

*I will not say all men have this, but I am told a great many of them do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We are as we are made, and you're talking to a woman who once had an orgasm at a stop-light while thinking about...well, we won't get into what I was thinking about, but anyway, I will not be casting stones from THIS side, trust me.

**We'll make exception for the fitters of various bodice-like clothing, who get the same professional free pass as the OB/GYN.

***Okay, definitely gotta stop with those Regency romances...

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I think "unwanted sex = rape" is a bit broad. (Which is not to say that it's not bad unless it's rape. "No" does mean no)

But nagging someone into having sex is rape? Really? Sexual harrassment sure, I'd go along with calling it that in a hot second. And it's sick, without a doubt. But rape? Unless there's something more to the story than just "getting tired of the nagging" I'd have to think about that one.

Threatening someone (whether with the threat of violance or non-physical consequences) is still an act of force (even if not a physical act), and while I don't believe it requires physical violance to qualify, it seems like force of some sort should be necessary before we start calling things rape, shouldn't it?

Otherwise it sounds like we could lump in "Well I don't really feel like it, but he wants some. I guess I'll put up with it," as rape. And at the point where the person doesn't even have to say "No"... that's a little scary.

"And at the point where the person doesn't even have to say "no"...that's a little scary".
A lack of no does not automatically equate yes.

Repeatedly asking someone for sex, when they keep indicating they have no desire for sex right then, is indeed rape when they finally give in.

I don't have to "think about that one". I've listened to it. Nightly as a teenager. I've heard others' stories. I've been raped myself through pressure/coercion.

As I said in my other comment, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm walking away from discussing this with you any further.

It's only rape if the person being "asked" feels that they HAVE NO CHOICE but to go along.

If they can tell the person, "Fuck off, I'm not having sex with you," without fear of the consquences then they still have the choice, they have the free will, and it's not rape. It may still be a horrifically unhealthy relationship though.

Now if the person actually is made to fear the consequences of saying "No" then it's absolutely rape. But free will has to have an important place in the defining of something as serious as rape.

But there is never no 'fear of consequences'. 'Consequences' don't have to be violence. When it's your boyfriend repeatedly asking you for sex, you might not be saying 'yes' in the end because you're afraid he might hurt you. It might be because you don't want to hurt his feelings, because you feel you owe him one, whatever. Free will is often entangled in a lot of human feeling and social expectations, sadly :/

I have been raped by someone I loved. So, it seems, has the person you're conversing with. I hope you understand how unspeakably offensive you're being by telling us we were not raped.

Re: Prevention

So you are honestly, with a straight face, telling me... that if your boyfriend asks you to have sex, and you go along because you "don't want to hurt his feelings" or because you think "you owe him one" that he RAPED you? I'll agree it's an unhealthy relationship, because those are crappy reasons to have sex. But you're really telling me that if you agreed of your own free will, when you were in no (even perceived) danger, that it's rape? No, I think the consequences at least need to amount to more than "I might hurt his feelings" before you start throwing words like rape around.

I'm sorry you were raped. It's a horrible, tragic, terrible thing. You have my utmost sympathy (as does anyone it's happened to). But if that's really what you're telling me, then I don't think you and I have anything further to discuss.

The dictionary definition of rape is 'to force someone to engage in sexual intercourse'. I can pretty easily see how one might assume this means that rape must be literally, physically impressed upon a person in the most immediate of senses. However, the definition you're using for force seems to be a different one than the definition I am using, which is the first given defintion for force as a verb on dictionary.com:

–verb (used with object)
18. to compel, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something: to force a suspect to confess.

(1 through 17 are defintions for force as a noun.)

If someone is asking me over and over and over for sex, whining, pleading, begging, whatever - if they are doing so with the implied consequence that if I do not consent I will be made to deal with more of the same, and if I give a very final 'no' (ie 'fuck off') that I will have to deal with being called a bitch, a prude, being accused of being a bad girlfriend, being made to sleep on the couch, being treated poorly/harshly for any period of time afterwards, or any other number of non-violent responses that could still easily fall within the realm of emotional abuse - and if I give nominal consent to avoid the 'consequences' of saying no, then I have been raped. I realize that the way I put it in my previous comment does not really give the extent of what I meant by 'hurting his feelings' because I did not indicate that his feelings being hurt would lead to yet more, largely emotionally damaging, consequences. For that I am sorry; I am normally better at explaining myself than that and I am not sure why I did not elaborate. I hope my meaning is clear now.

Rape does not have to be a violent act, nor does it have to threaten physical violence. It is nonconsentual sex, and that includes coerced and forced sex of any kind. Just because I have to worry about being made to cry or long-term damage to my self-image does not mean that it is any less rape than if I have to worry about a black eye.

If there is a situation in which someone feels that they cannot say no to sex for fear of repercussion, whatever that repercussion may be, that is rape. I realize that the concept 'you could rape someone and not know it' is EXTREMELY upsetting, inflammatory, and unnerving, because gosh, if you could rape someone and not know it, then maybe you did! Maybe it happened and you didn't realize it. Maybe you're one of those icky people you work so hard to distance yourself from, an 'asshole' or a 'creep' or a 'sick fuck' or any of those terms people use to distance 'bad people' from themselves. I'm not saying you raped anyone. I am saying that I understand how extremely distressing it is to think that there is even the slightest possibility that you might have. However, in this day and age rape is so 'normal' in our society (and so often unreported) that it does, sadly, often go completely unnoticed by at least one of the parties involved, whether or not that is a comfortable thought.

Have you read the volumious posting I've already done on this subject? I politely request that you do, if you haven't. But I'll try and address your comments here as well.

I also apologise for blowing up earlier. But this is becoming very frustrating, because I say one thing and people come along and put their own twist on it, taking it to an extreme it was never meant to include... and then saying how wrong I am. Hopefully you can understand my perspective on that. Either way, I'm sorry I got angry.

To start off, I don't believe (and neither does the law thankfully) that *physical force* is required for rape to have ocurred. But the law does state that *lack of consent* is necessary for rape to have ocurred. I also state that as being the case. And if consent was not forced (by physical means, threat, blackmail, drugging, etc, etc,) then whatever took place was not rape.

Now I'm going to quote a bit of your comment, to address it very specifically: "If someone is asking me over and over and over for sex, whining, pleading, begging, whatever - if they are doing so with the implied consequence that if I do not consent I will be made to deal with more of the same, and if I give a very final 'no' (ie 'fuck off') that I will have to deal with being called a bitch, a prude, being accused of being a bad girlfriend, being made to sleep on the couch, being treated poorly/harshly for any period of time afterwards, or any other number of non-violent responses that could still easily fall within the realm of emotional abuse".... then you are so far outside what I was talking about that it's not even remotely relevant to my comment. Mere pressure and emotional abuse are not the same thing.

The threat of emotional abuse is indeed a threat. And I'd go along with an accusation of rape in that example (at least under certain conditions, such as the victim is in a position where they feel they cannot reasonably leave). But that example is extreme. That example is not mere pressure. Can we agree that pressure does not need to be emotional abuse, and that pressure ("Aw... pleeeese") that is well short of such emotional abuse is not grounds to claim rape? If so, we are not actually in disagreement, at least that I can see.

On the other hand... if you have any valid reason to expect that type of behavior from the person (and it's not simply your own issues unrelated to anything that specific person has done - in which case he shouldn't be held responsible for those issues and should in no way be accused of rape), then you really shouldn't be in the same room with that person, much less contemplate having sex with them. You should definitely go with the "fuck off", take the name calling, sleep on the couch (with one eye open) and get the hell out of there the first chance you get - 'cause that's a *really* screwed up relationship. But that's a different discussion.

So, yeah... hopefully we're clear on that part. Now to get controversial again (probably).

This idea that rape "does, sadly, often go completely unnoticed by at least one of the parties involved" idea... I still say bullshit. You can't (barring, possibly, actual mental illness) do that to person without knowing what you did. And you may try to lie to yourself (and others) and claim that it wasn't rape, or abuse, or any of the other rotten things that the "bad people" do and don't admit to. Whatever you want to call it, however you want to argue semantics, you darn well *noticed* you did it. And normal, decent, "good" people... don't do it. So I still stand by my original point. Normal, decent, "good" people do not, "accidently" or otherwise, rape someone.

I am pretty sure I have read all your comments in this thread, though I might have missed one or two. I didn't see anything that I considered to be addressing this aspect of things satisfactorily, though.

I actually have not been in a situation where someone who was putting 'pressure' on me or another person was doing so *without* the implied threat of emotional abuse. Perhaps I am functioning out of my own experience of abuse in doing so, but I actually can't picture a situation where a person would feel that they needed to give nominal consent against their will without the threat of emotional abuse involved. If that is just the paranoid side of me talking, please tell me so, because I am not really capable of distancing my emotions from my logic enough in this particular case to tell. Other than that, though, yes, it would seem we are in agreement on that topic.

Regarding abusive relationships and why people don't just leave those layabouts, well, that's a discussion for another time (and a rather controversial one at that). Rest assured I am not longer in an abusive relationship and know what to look for in the future to ensure it does not happen again (hopefully).

I do not make such a distinct line between 'good' people and 'bad' people (in fact, I've been known to vehemently argue that no such line exists, but I do understand the need to make one). However, I think you are severely overlooking situations in which one person perceived a threat the other did not intend. If a person consents to sex or nonconsentually engages in it because they fear for their lives, safety, psyche, whatever, I would argue that that is still rape even if the 'rapist' didn't intend a threat (as in they were just joking, didn't know their own strength, etc - I agree that the line is much more blurred when the 'victim' is making assumptions based on past abuse rather than what is actually happening). In that case it is perfectly possible that the 'rapist' didn't even realize the other person was upset - many people are very good at hiding their feelings, and in such a situation would probably feel that they had to.

For example:
Suzie and Bill are messing around on Bill's couch. Maybe Bill's been into some S/M in the past or something, for whatever reason, he's being playfully aggressive. He doesn't realize that he's pushing a little hard or gripping a little too tight, or that the 'fun' growl in his voice is reading as actual anger. Suzie reads this as 'this is an angry, aggressive person - if I don't consent, he might hurt me' so she consents to sex. The next morning, she feels violated, but he doesn't realize anything happened and when she doesn't call him back, takes it as just a one night stand without realizing anything went wrong.

That's a bit of a silly example, but it gets my point across. Do you see what I mean?

Sigh... How am I not getting through here?

You say...
"I actually can't picture a situation where a person would feel that they needed to give nominal consent against their will without the threat of emotional abuse involved."

And y'know what? NEITHER CAN I!

My point is (and has been) that if a person gives consent because their partner did some begging, or nagging, or pleading, or whatever, AND IT DIDN'T REACH THE LEVEL OF EMOTIONAL ABUSE (and there was no reasonable expectation of it reaching that level), then it was not rape.

That's it. That's what I'm saying. Consenting without SOME KIND of threat, coercion, force, incapacitation, SOMETHING that actually takes the choice away... means that it was consensual. And there is no such thing as consensual rape.

If someone is uncomfortable with having sex, they HAVE TO have some responsibility to convey that to the other person. Otherwise we're right back to expecting people to be psychic. It may be cold and uncaring of me, but I simply don't buy the "I didn't say no, or give any sign whatsoever that I didn't want sex, but it's still rape" argument. It makes no sense. If the other person has *no way* of knowing that you don't want to have sex, if you've done *nothing* to make it clear that you don't want to have sex, then you have *no right* to call that person a rapist.

If someone has trust issues so severe that they are likely to see threats that aren't there, that's unfortunate. I feel bad for those folks. But if someone has such issues, and they want those issues accomodated, they have to at least communicate that those issues are there. THEN if their partner doesn't take that into consideration, you might have a point.

I would argue that it is rape not because of nonconsent, but because of a lack of consent. I don't have to say 'no' for it to be rape... I just don't have to say 'yes'. A female can be not-actively-participating in sex, give absolutely no sign that she is enjoying herself, and yet as long as she doesn't give overt signs that she is upset (screaming, crying, saying 'no', acting scared) the other person may not be aware that she is not giving consent. Worse yet, she could be acting like she enjoys it to be staving off the threat, perceived or otherwise, in non-violent rape situations. In that case there isn't really a way for her partner to tell that she isn't enjoying herself - after all, if you've had a wide variety of sexual experiences I'm sure you've slept with at least one 'dead fish' who just laid there and barely made a sound, because some people are just like that, whether from shyness or self-conciousness or whatever.

While I agree that in a situation where there is no threat and a person agrees to sex despite not wanting to actually engage in it, that is not rape, I still disagree that it is impossible to be a rapist and not know it. There are just too many different situations, too many unforeseen possiblities, to outright say "No, it is in no way possible that anyone ever could ever have raped anyone and not been aware of it." That's just silly, honestly.

I have to say, being female, I and every female I know when around strange males operates out of a place of vulnerability. It's not because they have trust issues. It's because males are generally bigger and stronger and so on. A perceived threat might be there simply because of that fact. When I say that accidental rape may occur, it's just that: an ACCIDENT. If Bill is pushing Suzie against the couch too hard or gripping her arm too tightly and she gets scared, it's not her fault for having 'trust issues' and it's not his fault for 'not noticing' that she is scared when she is doing her very best to hide it. It's nobody's fault. It is an accident. It is rape because he wants sex and she does not, not because he's an awful person.

Bottom line... Rape is a crime. A crime with serious consequences. It's not an accusation that can be taken (or should be made) lightly. Therefore some reasonable means is required to determine when a rape has occurred. That's why the law has established means, and definitions for what constitutes rape. What you're claiming eliminates ANY means of determining, therefore it just plain doesn't work as a way to determine the existance of rape. Claiming that it does is nothing more than hot air.

Rape is not "anything that makes me feel icky". There's no such thing as "no-fault rape". Rape, by it's very nature, HAS to be someone's fault, or it doesn't exist. If no one is forcing anybody (physically, by threat, etc) then there's no rape. And if someone invents a threat that just isn't there, that still doesn't magically make it rape (though I'll grant that a person could likely "feel like" or even *think* they were raped, when they weren't by any objective measure).

And IMO, the idea that a situation so innocuous that those involved CAN'T TELL if there's a threat or not can be called a rape... is beyond silly. It passed silly on the way out of the stratosphere, circled the planet, and is coming around for another lap PAST silly.

I think I'm done debating this point.

Ah, well, here's where we're differing. You're arguing the criminal definition of rape, I'm arguing it as 'nonconsentual/forced-consent sexual intercourse'. I am very familiar with the legal definition of rape and you are correct, without a clear threat understood by both parties there is no court case for rape. Seems we've been butting heads over my misunderstanding, then. Sorry about that.

I don't believe that there is *any other* acceptable definition at all, because the term "rape" is far too serious to play games with the definition. It can't be *allowed* to have any other definition. "It's not *legally* rape, but it's still rape," is a viewpoint I find fundamentally dangerous. If people want to talk about things that might be "sort of like" rape, but aren't rape... then they need to use a different term. Rape is already taken.

Yet, to the best of my knowledge, "nonconsensual or forced consent sexual intercourse" pretty much IS the legal definition of rape (or as close as we'll get in broad terms, since minor details apparently vary by jurisdiction). If consent is forced (physically or otherwise), it's rape. If consent can't be given (due to incapacity of some sort), it's rape.

The problem I have with your argument is that... if consent was given without force, or threat (or various other things, like drugs, etc, that can prevent consent), then it isn't just "not rape" it's also not "nonconsensual or forced consent sexual intercourse". If a person agrees to have sex, and the other person didn't actively DO SOMETHING to MAKE them agree, then it's not non-consensual either. Before it can be non-consensual, there has to actually BE non-consent.

This scenario that some people have tried to feed me, where...
"Hey, let's get it on!"
"No, I don't feel like it."
"Aw, c'mon. It'll be fun." -gropes playfully-
"...mmmm" -slaps hand away-
"Please?" -gives puppy dog eyes-
"Oh, okay."
...equals a rape (or even non-consensual sex) is simply ludicrous, no matter what REASONABLE definition you want to use for rape (or for non-consensual sex).

Re: Prevention

I knew some guys in high school who actually said they thought "sex against her will = rape" was a bit broad.

Now that's pretty scary. Makes me wonder what they think rape is then, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to know.

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